Curse

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 28, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

And you provide NO facts, personal attacks, then scream "see, I'm right!".
Imho, not even worthy of the dumpster.

Anet talks about "balance" in PvE, come on! When I can create a solo-build that alows me to have between 45-50k hp like Duncan the Black, then you can cry balance! There is no balance in PvE, never has been, never will be. It's an illusion.

Keep catering to the elite few, and I'll be gone too.

Wait...FACTS?

What "facts" do the "waaaaaah I need SF to complete areas" crowd offer? Please, name a few.

reaper with no name · Dec 28, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

And you provide NO facts, personal attacks, then scream "see, I'm right!".
Imho, not even worthy of the dumpster.

Anet talks about "balance" in PvE, come on! When I can create a solo-build that alows me to have between 45-50k hp like Duncan the Black, then you can cry balance! There is no balance in PvE, never has been, never will be. It's an illusion.

Keep catering to the elite few, and I'll be gone too.

You get protective spirit, PvE skills, a party, and intelligence, as well as the ability to change your build. He's the one who gets the short end of the stick.

Besides, while balance may be an impossible dream, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to attain it. If we throw this principle out the window and claim that the game is just about getting cool stuff, then we might as well just give people an instant-win button and be done with it.

mrvrod · Dec 28, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You get protective spirit, PvE skills, a party, and intelligence, as well as the ability to change your build. He's the one who gets the short end of the stick.

Besides, while balance may be an impossible dream, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to attain it. If we throw this principle out the window and claim that the game is just about getting cool stuff, then we might as well just give people an instant-win button and be done with it.

As I see it, SF has it's counters just like every other skill in the game. Blame poor enemy composition or mob inadaptibility if you like.

Lest we forget, here are the SF counters:

Energy drain.
Touch skills.
Hex removal.
Enchant removal.
Signets.
Untargeted AoE (Inferno, Crystal Wave, Chilling Victory etc.).

To Yelling @ Everyone: I've provided what I feel are valid points. I don't just post "because I said so" arguments.

I feel discussion about these nerfs is important, not just for how they change the "meta", but also how they affect the people playing. I feel if the majority of players are against a nerf, that alone should be reason enough to hold the nerfbat at bay.

As are all my (and your) arguments, these are opinions and anet will do whatever they please. When I say I'll move on to a different game if certain things change, I am not threatening and holding my breath to get my way. I'm simply letting (hopefully) anet know how I feel about the direction of the game. If the game becomes unenjoyable for me, the logical thing is to find one that is enjoyable.

mrvrod · Dec 28, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

I'm going to try to explain my situation here a bit for one simple reason: I believe a lot of pro SFers are coming at this from a farming standpoint, and it's easy to knock any/all farming builds for being too powerful since they're builds made for the sole purpose of easy farming. I believe a lot of the anti SFers are either in very large guilds and have no need for powerful solo/reduced party builds, or elite area PuGers having a hard time getting into groups.

I have been playing GW for over 4 years. I have very little experience in, and desire for, PvP play. If you debate overpowerd skills for PvP, I will keep my opinion out. I am primarily a PvE RPGer. I belong to a small, family started, guild. Of our 15 or so members, only two of us log on each night to play. We do not PuG. Too many griefers out there to have fun in random groups anymore. We have beaten Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North multiple times on multiple characters. I have the Bonus Mission Pack and have done everything there is to do. Guild Wars 2 is not going to be out for a while, as we all know. So... I'm at the point in this game where only the most elite of areas will actually give me new experiences.

If you've actually read everything to this point, thank you and, I'm sorry.

Ok, so here I am. In a guild where I have one other partner. Not wanting to join a larger guild because this one has great sentimental value to me. Bored out of my wits with content I've overplayed too many times to count. So on to the elite areas.... Therein lies the problem. You need to have a completely human party in order to be successful in elite areas with a "balanced" group, or you need a couple of powerful builds, and some hero support. With certain "gimmick" builds - SF, Discord, Smite - Elite areas have become completable for myself and my guildie. Now, because some have "abused" said builds to get record farming times, rather than a redesign of these few areas a-la UW, anet will simply swing the nerfbat at everything that has opened up previously unattainable content.

Call me crazy but I don't really care if ecto prices drop to 1k each, and your thousands of stacks become worthless. I don't care if a Bone Dragon Staff can suddenly be bought for 60k. I don't care about protecting the "value" of meaningless trinkets in the game if it means locking me and my guildie (and many others from the sound of it) out of content we can now enjoy with these "powerful" builds in place.

That's where I'm coming from. Thanks for taking the time to read through this.

toocooltang · Dec 28, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Balanced groups actually require fewer people because there is less overall reliance on PVE skills. I have completed almost every dungeon, FoW, and DOA 2man with 6 heroes. Its pretty easy and fast you just need to know what you are fighting and counter it with your hero skills. In a way its almost easier to have 6 heroes instead of 8 people from some areas.

As far as you being in a small guild and only have 1 other person to play with. Well thats your choice, you can find new people to join your guild, or just accept the fact you will be unable to complete some elite area's because of your anti social ingame activity. So don't use the I don't want to make new friends or join a new guild and thus i can't do elite area's without SF.

Abedeus · Dec 28, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Energy drain.

Most of them are spells anyway.

Quote:

Touch skills.

Protective Bond or Stoneflesh Aura.

Quote:

Hex removal.

A/E's still use hexes?

Quote:

Enchant removal.

About 90-95% of the enchant removals are spells or attacks. All miss.

Quote:

Signets.

Most of the time, useless or negated by Protective Bond.

Quote:

Untargeted AoE (Inferno, Crystal Wave, Chilling Victory etc.).

Stay your distance and use PB.

Quote:

To Yelling @ Everyone: I've provided what I feel are valid points. I don't just post "because I said so" arguments.

This would require a total overhaul of the PvE to make sure that every zone has at least one untargetted source of damage, one non-Spell, non-Attack way of removing enchantments and one non-Spell non-Attack way of e-denialing the assassin. Yeeaaah. And it would totally not hurt the balanced teams.

Quote:

I feel discussion about these nerfs is important, not just for how they change the "meta", but also how they affect the people playing. I feel if the majority of players are against a nerf, that alone should be reason enough to hold the nerfbat at bay.

Numbers or shut up.

Quote:

As are all my (and your) arguments, these are opinions and anet will do whatever they please. When I say I'll move on to a different game if certain things change, I am not threatening and holding my breath to get my way. I'm simply letting (hopefully) anet know how I feel about the direction of the game. If the game becomes unenjoyable for me, the logical thing is to find one that is enjoyable.

Who cares if you leave? It's not like you are paying $15 a month to play the game. If anything, lesser burden on the servers for people that still play.

Also they promised to not only take care of SF, but also other invinci builds.

Arkantos · Dec 28, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Anet talks about "balance" in PvE, come on! When I can create a solo-build that alows me to have between 45-50k hp like Duncan the Black, then you can cry balance! There is no balance in PvE, never has been, never will be. It's an illusion.

Keep catering to the elite few, and I'll be gone too.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There's always been some balance in PvE. Want to know why we aren't running around with 50k health and base defense? Balance. Exact same for shadow form - it grants you invulnerability to the majority of PvE enemies, which is unbalanced, and why it is getting nerfed. Bosses generally have crazy health/armor/skills/whatever in every RPG, because without that they'd be loleasy (although they already are in GW).

Also, I'm pretty sure that after 4 1/2 years, ANet couldn't care less if people quit, so there's no point in throwing around empty threats.

Quote:

As I see it, SF has it's counters just like every other skill in the game. Blame poor enemy composition or mob inadaptibility if you like.

Lest we forget, here are the SF counters:

Energy drain.
Touch skills.
Hex removal.
Enchant removal.
Signets.
Untargeted AoE (Inferno, Crystal Wave, Chilling Victory etc.).

All are pretty much nowhere to be seen in the elite areas of the game. The majority of elite areas that have those counters don't have enough to really effect the SF sin. The argument that there are counters is moot when the counters are nowhere to be seen.

Quote:

I feel discussion about these nerfs is important, not just for how they change the "meta", but also how they affect the people playing. I feel if the majority of players are against a nerf, that alone should be reason enough to hold the nerfbat at bay.

If the majority of players demanded a stack of ecto or they'd all quit, would that be reason enough to give them it? No. I see where you're coming from, but sometimes you have to go against the majority. If ANet never went against the majority, this game would be absolute shit because the majority of PvE players are simply farmers.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 28, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Ok, so here I am. In a guild where I have one other partner.

Glad we got that cleared up...that means you can complete nearly every area in the game, on hard mode.

Quote:

You need to have a completely human party in order to be successful in elite areas with a "balanced" group, or you need a couple of powerful builds, and some hero support.

Yep, and you can do it without SF or 600monks

Quote:

Call me crazy but I don't really care if ecto prices drop to 1k each

Cool, me either, I have 1 ecto

Quote:

I don't care if a Bone Dragon Staff can suddenly be bought for 60k.

I'm with you here as well.

Quote:

I don't care about protecting the "value" of meaningless trinkets in the game if it means locking me and my guildie (and many others from the sound of it) out of content we can now enjoy with these "powerful" builds in place.

Again, I'm with you here...I really don't give a flying f*ck about the cost of anything in the game.

Quote:

That's where I'm coming from. Thanks for taking the time to read through this.

Still not seeing where you are coming from...you want to do places that are supposed to be hard, with builds that are ridiculously overpowered to the point of you being invulnerable? I'm not understanding how this is enjoyable at all. You admit to not caring about the phat lewt, but you also enjoy taking ANY challenge out of the game and essentially playing on godmode.

I mean, you don't need godmode to do UW/FoW with 2 people...so maybe your solution is just to be better at the game, rather than relying on godmode? A game is meant to challenge you and make you think. If you don't want any challenge or thought process, make a screen saver that comes up after a minute that says "YOU WIN!".

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 28, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

To Yelling @ Everyone: I've provided what I feel are valid points. I don't just post "because I said so" arguments.

Ah, so you feel that instead of nerfing SF, the entire game should be changed around the skill...which achieves the same thing as nerfing SF.

shoyon456 · Dec 28, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

As I see it, SF has it's counters just like every other skill in the game. Blame poor enemy composition or mob inadaptibility if you like.

Lest we forget, here are the SF counters:

Energy drain.
Touch skills.
Hex removal.
Enchant removal.
Signets.
Untargeted AoE (Inferno, Crystal Wave, Chilling Victory etc.).

So? Mobs aren't dynamic, they're static. And that wouldn't be a problem except then ALL elite areas would need to have mobs' bars balanced around anti sf, which is just stupid.

There may be skills in an area that slip through SF like Shock, but those groups/monsters can be avoided and don't seem to deter the really dedicated SFers.

Axeman002 · Dec 28, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Wait...FACTS?

What "facts" do the "waaaaaah I need SF to complete areas" crowd offer? Please, name a few.

there is 54 pages of facts here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...414093p54.html you need to change ure quote to.... "waaaaaah I need 600 to complete areas"

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 28, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

there is 54 pages of facts here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...414093p54.html you need to change ure quote to.... "waaaaaah I need 600 to complete areas"

Not sure if you were aiming for wittiness or what...but last I checked, this thread is about SF and 600, which are both part of the skill balance.

Which they are both pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned. Obviously, SF is the greater of the two since it can solo 90% of the game, compared to 600's 10%, but both are degenerate builds.

Axeman002 · Dec 28, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

no SF can tank 90% of the game...600 can KILL 90% of the games areas

Fay Vert · Dec 28, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Which is why 600 should also be looked at (and is). Isn't it time 55 was kicked too? Low HP builds are clever in concept, but really?

T1Cybernetic · Dec 28, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Yeah because the 55 is game breaking

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Protective Bond or Stoneflesh Aura.
A/E's still use hexes?
About 90-95% of the enchant removals are spells or attacks. All miss.
Most of the time, useless or negated by Protective Bond.
Stay your distance and use PB.

Where do I sign up to be as 1337 as you? I guess SF should be nerfed since you're apparently running an A/E/Mo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Ah, so you feel that instead of nerfing SF, the entire game should be changed around the skill...which achieves the same thing as nerfing SF.

You're of course missing the point. Nerf SF now, and something will come along to replace it, as it has done since the beginning of the game. SF is simply the current Meta, if you and other SF haters were TRULY worried about game balance, then you'd realize this completely obvious issue and be siding with those calling for game changes, not skill balances.

But as the completely obvious escapes you, I can see why you'd miss it. Seeing as how you and other SF haters are completely and utterly disingenuous, its very obvious to all that you're simply jealous of Sins being in ascendance even for a little bit, since it kicks the dominance of Wars Eles and Mos in the junk. Just admit you're jealous, then you can start working on a real solution.

Those calling for a skill nerf need to wake up and realize the real issue at hand, GW will NEVER be balanced for all the professions unless the gameplay itself is altered to accommodate ALL THE PROFESSIONS. This game is NOT balanced if the only choices in a "balanced" team consist of three core classes! To suggest it be the case is complete idiocy, but for some reason, SF haters fall on this side of the argument because they're completely unable to see the root cause of the issue.

Ah well. I guess the only thing to do is to let the vocal whiny minority have their cake and eat it too, which of course means GW will die a slow and painful death into obscurity, rather than enjoy a revival which would be accomplished by addressing the game's actual flaws.

lishi · Dec 28, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

GW will never be balanced and once SF is gone something else is gonna replace it (not as some similar skill, i hope is intelligent enough to not make another godmode).

So? That is the thing who keep the game fresh.

Nerf and buffs.

And the fact one cannot achieve perfection don't mean better do nothing then something.

And no im not jealous of sins, actually in the last week i was in few successful dayway and SoOSC ( Well, it take many bad player to fail something as easy as SoOsc)

Bryant Again · Dec 28, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If the majority of players demanded a stack of ecto or they'd all quit, would that be reason enough to give them it? No. I see where you're coming from, but sometimes you have to go against the majority. If ANet never went against the majority, this game would be absolute shit because the majority of PvE players are simply farmers.

I feel that as long as a game is fun for the "newbie", it's not going to matter what you do to the higher-end portion of your game. A good example is WoW: even with so much crying (much of it well warrented, and usually pretty big issues) and other major imbalances, you still see players flocking to the game.

A great example is Guild Wars: even though it's turn into a pretty shit game, it still managed to reach the 6mil copies mark and still sees a major load of activity.

Unless ANet did something to really hamper how newcomers play the game, they're really able to do anything.

Fay Vert · Dec 28, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by T1Cybernetic

Yeah because the 55 is game breaking

It used to be, no reason why it won't be again.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 28, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

no SF can tank 90% of the game...600 can KILL 90% of the games areas

Thanks for proving yourself retarded.